The Art of Transitioning to Outsourced Contact Centres with Ray Biggs: Navigating Challenges and Embracing Change in Customer Service

Discover the intricate dance of transitioning from an in-house contact centre to the vibrant ecosystem of outsourced contact centres with Ray Biggs, the savvy COO of Ventrica. 

Ray's journey uncovers the pace and challenges of adjusting to a BPO environment, where the demands of diverse clients must be juggled with precision. Our conversation traverses the landscape of operational duties and strategic insights, highlighting Ray's adaptability and the essential prioritization skills his team employs to satisfy both floor agents and clients. The excitement of such a dynamic setting is palpable as we explore the thrill that comes with each new day in the outsourcing world.

Tap into the gold mine of customer insights hidden within every service interaction as we discuss how outsourced providers like Ventrica harness these details to refine business strategies. The episode shines a light on the transformative power of consistent training, focusing on emotional CX to elevate service experiences. 

We share stories that celebrate the positive impact of employee experience and engagement on performance and job satisfaction. This chapter is an ode to the rewards of embracing change, the collective wisdom of a dedicated team, and the customer-first philosophy that drives outstanding service.

Lastly, we veer into the personal realm, where Ray and I unpack the challenges of leadership transitions and offer pearls of wisdom for navigating the complexities of outsourcing in the customer service industry. 

We underscore the necessity for resilience, a clear purpose, and the thoughtful pursuit of seamless client-provider partnerships. To close, we revel in the simple pleasures—Ray's enjoyment of live music and his anticipation of upcoming gigs, as well as the tranquillity found in a glass of wine—reminding us all to find moments of joy amidst our demanding careers. 

Join us for this enlightening exploration across the professional and personal spheres of a customer experience leader.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:33

Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and Contact Centres.

Speaker 1: 0:43

The movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Ray Biggs, chief Operating Officer at Venture. Ray, hi, welcome. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Keith, really pleased to be here. Great, so you moved from a big career in in-house contact centres from outsourced provider around about a year ago. Share some of your insights into your thought process around making that transition.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Yeah, thanks Keith. Yeah, some might say a bit of an unusual step. I remember at the time people kind of going you're going to the dark side and I think I have to say I kind of thought maybe I was a little bit. However, now on the dark side, I'm looking at the in-house side and going I think there's more dark art that side of the fence than there is, than there is ours.

Speaker 2: 1:41

I've worked in house operations and I've worked with a lot of outsourced providers really successfully. So I've always been a fan of the outsource model and always recognised the value that that could bring. I kind of got to a point where I was really looking for a bit more variety and a different level of challenge. You know incredibly proud to have led the the John Lewis and Waitrose operations and you know there aren't there aren't many much bigger or better than that. So where do you go from there? Well, actually I kind of saw going into outsourcing as a way of giving back a little bit and actually being able to help multiple clients but also get out the retail vertical as well, which is what I've been for the last 20 years. So that was kind of the motivation, amazing.

Speaker 1: 2:29

And so how have you found it? What were the sort of main differences you've noticed in your time there between in-house versus BPO? But in terms of the work environment and the nature of the customer and the contact interactions? Yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 2:45

I knew it was. I knew it would be a change of pace. I didn't realise quite how fast it would be, so I kind of thought I might be running a 1500m race and I actually find myself running multiple 100m sprints every day, so the speed and pace was an adjustment. I think it's. The breadth of challenge is huge because you've got the added dynamic now of a client as well as your end customer. So typically in in-house operation you've got your customers and your stakeholders In this role, I've got my stakeholders, I've got my agents, I've got the end customer and then I've also got the client.

Speaker 2: 3:29

So that kind of fourth dynamic has been a really interesting challenge to deal with, because and the variability in those clients in terms of what they want, their needs, how involved they want to be there really isn't a one-size-fits-all. So I think you know people have to look at outsourcing and think it's a factory and it's a machine and it's a, there's an operating model and that applies and there's no variability. I think it's probably quite the opposite actually, the variability is huge and I'm actually quite a big fan of that because that's how you really deliver the best for your clients, by you know really tailoring what you do where you can.

Speaker 1: 4:10

Yeah, and how have you personally adapted to those new dynamics and those changing expectations?

Speaker 2: 4:16

I've had to dust off some skills that I haven't used for a while. So you know, look, I was in a big organization with, you know, a big team around me and all those huge support functions, and certainly in this role we don't have that luxury. So therefore, you know, what I've had to do is really train my brain to go from, you know, at 12 o'clock on a Monday looking at weekly performance, to one o'clock, looking at three year to five year pipeline strategy, to wondering whether we've got enough toilet roll in the toilets and everything in between. So that kind of dexterity of being able to think big, think small in a nanosecond is where I've really had to go.

Speaker 2: 5:05

I found myself knackered when I first started the job and, joe RCFO, she said how are you finding it? I said I'm knackered and she played it back to me. She said it's the agility you're having to use to literally move from the minutiae to the million miles in the sky. And she's absolutely right. I've adjusted to it. I'm still knackered, but actually there's a brilliant challenge in that, right, you know, I guess I would say was I getting bored? In my previous role it was becoming so. I'm never bored in this one. There's always something else that I've got to be doing, and that's what I like. I'm an adrenaline junkie.

Speaker 1: 5:45

Yeah, and thinking back to my time as a CO-worker although it was an in-house, it was an NHS direct and that was a very big, complex operation I found that you could work 85 hours a week and still scratch the surface of what you needed to do. How are you going about prioritisation these days?

Speaker 2: 6:04

It's a different dynamic. Oh, yeah, sure it is. I mean, you know people if I'm honest and hopefully my boss won't listen to this, but he's the least important so it's literally it's the agents that are on the phone and those operational teams that are delivering, and then it's the client, and actually you know those two, because if those two aren't being managed, aren't being appeased, then the whole world starts to implode really quickly. So, you know, prioritising that but actually having a really good team around you, so actually not falling into the trap of I've got to do everything myself. You've got a team. You know, trust your team. Your team will never let you down. Your team will never knowingly let you down. You know they might have gaps in ability and those kind of things, but using your team and taking the pressure off yourself and you know I'm with you keep working. You know you can choose to work all the hours God sends.

Speaker 2: 7:04

I think one of the lessons that I learned kind of previously in my career is they're not you know where you choose to invest your time is really, really important. And you know I've had roles where I literally, you know, sold my soul to the devil and looking back, I wasn't probably that effective. I thought I was because I was just working really hard. And there's that, there's that trap that you fall into. So you know, I watch it for myself because I can get consumed, but I'm also trying to watch it for my teams as well. You know, being always on doesn't mean you're brilliant. You know, some would say if you're always on and you've got poor time management right, I'm not sure it's necessarily quite that binary, but getting that balance is that important.

Speaker 1: 7:50

Yeah, during the transition you're only time the role. Were there any unexpected obstacles that arose? Anything that you weren't?

Speaker 2: 7:59

quite expecting, I think, dealing with clients. So you know I was a client. You know I'd been a client of all the big guys. By the way, if any of those are listening, I was a brilliant client, by the way. I can assure you of that from what I've seen.

Speaker 1: 8:19

I couldn't say the same about myself.

Speaker 2: 8:23

So actually it was quite an adjustment for me in terms of running, you know, three and a half thousand seats broadly across an in-house and outsourced operation to Interventrica, where you know some of our clients.

Speaker 2: 8:39

You know it's 20, 25 seats and actually the attention and focus those clients apply to that you know I'd underestimated, and how close they are to the detail was a bit of a shock for me really. And therefore, you know, engaging with them in a meaningful way Actually, you know what I wanted to do was to kind of help strategically and operate at that level, but actually they're already down in the details, so that was a bit of a flip-and-tack. How am I going to support and get into that? And then just the fascinating perennial challenge and I did it as a client is this constant challenge between quality, service, cost and everything else. And it's fascinating. You know, one of the brilliant, lucky, lucky things about being in this role is getting close to such a variety of clients and how they watch, how they wrestle with that challenge, you know, to varying degrees of success. It's really, really eye-opening.

Speaker 1: 9:56

Yeah, so we touched on how your roles change, responsibilities change, how you develop the skills next to a tease, and that's evolved. Do you feel you're a better ops director now than you were 18 months ago? Yeah yeah, heaven's shoulders.

Speaker 2: 10:11

I feel I feel scared more regularly and I take that as a measure of I tend as a positive measure. You know this kind of feel the fear and do it anyway, right. Yeah, I've been in a couple of roles. I'd got to a point where I knew everyone, knew everything, and you know that's a nice place to be. It's a very comfortable place, it's not a very scary place and I, you know, I'm learning more now. I probably learned more in this last eight months than I learned in the previous five years. Yeah, Possibly more.

Speaker 1: 10:51

So, thinking more broadly across your career, what sort of strategies and best practices have you found to be effective in maintaining quality and customer service delivery, and how does that apply whilst working with multiple clients these days?

Speaker 2: 11:09

Yeah, the joke that I got maybe too late, but was you just got to really listen to your customers that I get quite frustrated, which is a polite word, the word that I was about to say. There are lots of organisations and I've worked in these organisations where there are lots of people who think they know what customers want, who have views and opinions on what customers want and how they want to be treated and how they want to be dealt with and what services they would like. There isn't enough actually talking to customers and asking customers or listening to customers, and I think that's something that certainly you know, my kind of tight tail end of my career at the partnership was absolutely something that we'd got and we'd started to latch on to that and the voice of the agent. So you know we'll all be familiar with lots of voice of customer programmes and did it, did it, did it, did it. But actually you know voice of the agent, you know these are the people that are having.

Speaker 2: 12:12

You know, pick a number five, 10, eight calls, conversations with customers every hour, right, and organisations will spend a whole lot of money doing a whole lot of research to get a whole lot of customer insight and it's like you've got this incredible, rich vein of insight right under your nose and I don't think organisations are doing enough to really capture that. But you've got to take it, you've got to analyse it and you've got to make it actual and meaningful. And you know, certainly from a venture perspective, it's forefront of our minds in terms of, ok, that's great, right, so what are you going to do about it and what can we venture could do to help support our clients? So you know, it is under that big bucket of insight, right, that's a broad old church. You know you can go off and do a whole lot of analytics.

Speaker 2: 13:01

This is about how do you serve, how do you serve this the voice of the agent who can really tell you what customers are saying and will also have a viewing opinion on what's broken and what needs fixing. And I just don't think anyone is really good enough at that yet. I think there's a significant shift in that direction. But you know, I see that as the place where you know if you really customer focus. That's where you need to be playing.

Speaker 1: 13:26

So let's explore that a bit more. Have you seen any notable or particular differences in the training and support provided by outsourced providers in general, as well as where you are now compared to previous experiences of in-house?

Speaker 2: 13:41

Yeah. So I mean, my experience from a venture perspective is we're more consistent. So we have to be, because it's our day job and it's what we do. I actually think we could be better, and that's just me, because I think we always can be. Now, you know, if I look at what we did in jail, we had some brilliant training capability there, but probably, if I look across from the other organizations I work for, probably not as good actually as what outsourcers have.

Speaker 2: 14:12

Because you know this is what we do. We. You know our core skills are our soft skills. You know process training, system training, mannyana. You know F5 button great, brilliant, where our magic comes is the soft skills. And you know, for us, from a venture perspective, we're again, we're, you know, really doubling down on emotive CX. So you know, mine here was a big piece of work on this. We did some work on it in JL. I'm really keen to bring that back to the fore now with Ventrica in terms of how can we leverage emotive CX techniques and strategies within our soft skills training and therefore deliver better outcomes for our customers and how do we do that. And you know we've got we've got some exciting stuff coming, I think over the next six to 12 months in that space.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Yeah, I know Ventracare are very big on EX pulse checks and engagement, all that good stuff. Have you seen that impact performance and job satisfaction during the time?

Speaker 2: 15:13

Yeah, it's, you know the. We had a session a couple of weeks ago with some of our commercial team and talking about what's the secret source, what's the venture secret source? And the answer was it's our agents. Actually, we've won deals, we've picked competitors because of our people and the experience that those customers have had talking to our teams coming on site. We've still got a physical bricks and mortar operation. We've also got a home working operation when our people are brought in to talk about what they do, demonstrate what they do, show the care.

Speaker 2: 15:58

I mean we've got a we support a client with retirement homes and I think this is a brilliant story and I wish I'd been there so I could claim it, but I can't because I wasn't. But I love this when lockdown, clearly not many people are buying retirement homes and those kind of things and what this client could have done was said well, actually let's just wind down the operation and mothball, you know, then we'll come back out when all this is over. They didn't. They said actually we think your people will be really brilliant just to do some some welfare calls, and actually they kept paying the bills, they kept all the resource there and that, and what they wanted to do was go out and make phone calls to existing retired residents in retirement homes, recognizing there would be levels of isolation, all those kind of just say hi, just checking in, how are you, are you okay, how do you get everything you need? You know, yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2: 17:00

That for me, is an unbelievable example of an amazing client who really cares about their customers. But also recognizing the magic source that we've got, with some brilliant, brilliant contact center advisors that are then able to make those calls and actually have real value. And those, those agents, you know they're with us now. You know if you talk to them, you know the value they felt by. You know being allowed and asked to do that. They felt they were really genuinely helping. So you know, our people is a magic source for me and it always will be. We've got brilliant tech right, everybody's got brilliant tech. We've got brilliant tech, but I think people's the magic bit. This will be.

Speaker 1: 17:42

We talked about a lot of the challenges that you've had since your transition. What have you found particularly rewarding?

Speaker 2: 17:51

Being scared, but genuinely, and the fact that I'm learning so much on a daily basis, so genuinely, it's lit a fire, which is great because, you know, I probably didn't actually realize that fire had maybe gone out, so so I think that that that's brilliant. I'm working with a with a brilliant team. You know both, both my, you know my peer group. You know across Joe and Pete and Ian, but also you know down through the organization. You know our shared services function, our ops function. You know our commercial team. The talent is is massive and you know I've got a real B in my bonnet about. You know how can we be better at managing talent? We've got some great talent. I think some of it is almost by accident. Look at us. How can we get better at getting greater consistency on talent management in the organization and really bringing some stuff through? We've got you know we've got some brilliant people and we owe it to them to give them career pass and things like that.

Speaker 2: 19:04

So you know those are the things for me and I've I've actually found myself pitching as well, which is weird, so I never thought I'd find myself in front of a client selling my wares, but I actually really enjoyed that because it's credible and I'm you know, I'm selling a product that that I'm emotionally connected to, that I'm part of delivering. You know, I'm not selling something, I'm walking away. I'm I'm selling it and owning it and delivering it, and we'll get kicked if it doesn't work. So I'm enjoying that. That's good.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Amazing. Looking back on your decision to transition from one side to the other, what advice would you give to anyone else considering a similar move, and what sort of lessons have you learned that you wish you'd known beforehand?

Speaker 2: 19:52

So look, anybody considering this move, it's not for the faint hearted. What I mean by that is the pace is is, I would imagine, is significantly greater than whatever you're currently used to. So be prepared for that. You're going to need buckets of resilience, but I think generally anyone who works in the CS space anyway actually has resilience. But you know your resilience will be tested.

Speaker 2: 20:22

I think Think hard about why you're doing it and what you want out of it, because if you just wally into it you'll probably not last very long Because it is a hard working, tough environment. But if you're very clear on what you want to get out of it and also what can you bring to it, I think that's the other thing. If you talk to Ian, there is why he brought me in as opposed to another BPO COO was that he wanted somebody, he wanted the voice of the client in the boardroom, and I will regularly do that and go. That's great guys. But if I put my client hat on, I'll tell you this. So I think if you're moving into this industry, don't think you've got to forget. Actually bring your toolkit with you, because there'll be a place for it.

Speaker 1: 21:18

And that leads us nicely to the next question, which is what would your device be to clients who are either thinking about sourcing for the first time or experiencing issues with a current provider? Now you're on the other side.

Speaker 2: 21:30

what would you like to do. Think really hard about what you want and what you're trying to do. I think where and you know I've done this as a client in previous roles right, so I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I'm actually kind of reflecting on myself a little bit Be really clear and honest about what are the outcomes that you want and what is most important to you. And if you haven't got absolute laser sharp clarity on that, you're not ready to outsource, because what will happen is you'll outsource and you'll get something that you don't want. So and I think you know I've really encouraged people to look more broader.

Speaker 2: 22:11

You know the whole race for the bottom is a false game, without question, and you know I know it as a buyer of services. But you know, or at least be really brutally honest. You know if that's what you want and all you want is the cheapest possible you know agent sat at a desk then don't hide it. Be upfront, because you know there are some folks out there that will do that brilliantly for you. If that is all that you want, they will do that brilliantly for you. And also, do you know what you waste less time, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:49

Yeah, and taking that a stage further, how is your perspective on customer service and CX and the role of contact centers change in joining an outsource provider? Do you feel more connected to the broader industry? Do you feel less connected to a brand? How are you feeling about all that? Where's that going?

Speaker 2: 23:09

Really really good question, keith.

Speaker 2: 23:12

I struggled a little bit with disconnection from the brand.

Speaker 2: 23:15

So, having been kind of brand side, if you like, and certainly you know, with the partnership with JL and Wager and such incredibly powerful brands, so to then actually be in this position, which is you know, and it's fascinating because this is where our agents find themselves is, you know Ventrica brand versus you know our clients brands. Who do I work for? I work for Ventrica, but I'm working on behalf of, and how do you do all of all, of all of that sort of stuff? So, actually, where I've got my head to is, you know, ventrica brand is about delivering brilliant CX, and whichever one of those brands it is, they want brilliant CX. So, okay, right, so I'm more aligned now to delivering brilliant experiences.

Speaker 2: 24:02

How we do that and when that's through digitization, transformation, emotive CX, you know, whatever it might be, that's kind of you know. We need to solutionize for those clients and we need to help them, and I think what outsourcing needs to do is provide much better thought leadership to those brand. We shouldn't just be a well, you could choose to be, certainly from a venture perspective we don't want to be.

Speaker 2: 24:30

I hate the phrase, but we don't want to be a bums on seats outsourcer. We actually want to work in partnership. I want to be in a place where people don't quite know where the brand stops and Ventura starts. We want to be in a place where we can take clients on a journey. We can deliver them financial results, we can deliver them, improve CSAT, and we've got the tools in our armory, but we need to be on the forefront and help clients do that. Are we going to for that at the moment? No, we're not. Will we be? Sure? We will Most definitely, but I think that's what outsourcing needs to do. I think it needs to take greater responsibility for that thought leadership piece.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Yeah, and finally, how do you unwind, an escape from it? Or we all know, as COE, we work in 85 hours a week. What do you do for your downtime? How do you switch?

Speaker 2: 25:23

I'm a simple lad cooking based on the size of me. I do plenty of that, but I love to cook. I've got a family around me kind of happiest cooking for the family, gardening. I love messing about in the garden and the reason is because you start with a crappy bit of mud and after about an hour you stuck something in it and it looks great and I'm like that's amazing. I wish work sometimes was as immediately rewarding as that.

Speaker 1: 25:49

So those are music.

Speaker 2: 25:51

I'm a massive music addict. I went to see a Prince tribute at last night. I've got about nine gigs lined up this year. So yeah, those are the things, really simple. And an occasional glass of wine, keith. Just an occasional one, obviously.

Speaker 1: 26:04

Amazing Ray. It's been absolutely super having you with us today. I hope our listeners have found this as wonderful as I have. You can find out lots more about the Customer Experience Foundation at cxfoorg and do take a look at Venture for Two. We thank you for joining us on CX Diaries and we hope to see you next time.