Welcome to the latest episode of CX Diaries, where we delve into the intriguing world of customer experience (CX) in financial services. Our guest today is Wasim Mushtaq, a seasoned CX professional in the banking sector who will enlighten us about the evolving landscape, unique challenges, and the need for transparency in this highly regulated industry. Interested in learning how to cater to different client segments and personas? Stick around for Wasim's insightful discussion on the importance of omnichannel and digital channels in enhancing customer experience.
We're diving deeper into the power of data analytics in improving customer experience in the financial services industry. Wasim will share his expert insights on how data can be proactively used for product development, regulatory compliance, and simplifying decision-making processes. Don’t miss out on how CX strategies can align with business objectives and the delicate balance between data-driven decision making and the human element in banking journeys.
As we peer into the future of customer service in banking and financial services, we grapple with the emergence of FinTechs, new banks, and the development of Gen AI. Wasim will guide us through the balance between automation and personalization, and the operational benefits of AI. We'll also discuss the shift towards banking becoming more like the hospitality industry, and the potential risks of losing necessary friction in customer journeys. Tune in for an enlightening conversation on the evolving landscape of banking, financial services, and the impact of Gen AI.
Welcome to the latest episode of CX Diaries, where we delve into the intriguing world of customer experience (CX) in financial services. Our guest today is Wasim Mushtaq, a seasoned CX professional in the banking sector who will enlighten us about the evolving landscape, unique challenges, and the need for transparency in this highly regulated industry. Interested in learning how to cater to different client segments and personas? Stick around for Wasim's insightful discussion on the importance of omnichannel and digital channels in enhancing customer experience.
We're diving deeper into the power of data analytics in improving customer experience in the financial services industry. Wasim will share his expert insights on how data can be proactively used for product development, regulatory compliance, and simplifying decision-making processes. Don’t miss out on how CX strategies can align with business objectives and the delicate balance between data-driven decision making and the human element in banking journeys.
As we peer into the future of customer service in banking and financial services, we grapple with the emergence of FinTechs, new banks, and the development of Gen AI. Wasim will guide us through the balance between automation and personalization, and the operational benefits of AI. We'll also discuss the shift towards banking becoming more like the hospitality industry, and the potential risks of losing necessary friction in customer journeys. Tune in for an enlightening conversation on the evolving landscape of banking, financial services, and the impact of Gen AI.
Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to the people at the sharp end of CX the movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week, I'm delighted to be joined by Waseem Moushtak. Waseem's career of financial services has focused on leading operational teams and delivering strategic change across banking sectors, partnering with global banks to execute large-scale transformation and advising innovative startups to launch new products and services. Waseem has a master's in economics from the University of Glasgow and more recently completed executive certificates at SAID Business School, University of Oxford and MIT Sloan School of Management. Waseem, pleasure to have you with us today. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Hi, keith, pleasure to be here. I'm really glad that we managed to schedule it. I know we had a few issues before.
Speaker 1:That's great Good to be here. So give us an overview of your role responsibilities as a CX professional in the banking and financial sector. How does that differ from some of the other sectors we've dealt with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, I'm happy to go into that.
Speaker 2:So I mean, first of all, I would say that I've never seen myself as just a CX kind of person or professional in regards to my capabilities or deliverables, but it's been an important factor in everything that I've done and had to deliver.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you can have mentioned, most of my career probably 18 plus years now has been focused on either financial services or banking or startups, fintech as well, and then, more recently, kind of industry body, and the focus has always been either products and services and having very clean, I would say, channels for customers whether that's internal or external, by the way, to engage with the product owners and to deal with them directly. It's been quite interesting. I mean I have launched a few products myself in banking as well and Waseem would do what you would deem for it owners internally and leasing with the various markets. That was more for private banking and wealth management and we can get into that. But yeah, I mean what I've seen from when I started to where it is now is that kind of omnichannel, digital and those focus on the customer journey and jobs to be done has evolved and the understanding of that and the industry's evolved, and that's kind of what I am at the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what's your take on the customer experience landscaping for internal services industry today?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's a massive area, honestly, like you've got lots of teams and banks and in fintech's kind of talking about it, the reality was that most people and most companies were very paper based. You know, when I started anyway, and that's kind of going back to 2008 onwards, and what's happened is through, you know, just the advent of, you know, I guess, a better usability online in terms of websites, the mobile banking, in terms of the apps. You know, the expectation is that everything really is mobile first now, in terms of principles in banking and financial services, then you would normally have a website to as a supporting mechanism, as a platform. Then you'd have the call sensor used to companies still have that. And then you know you have branch, but it's interesting how you know everyone is talking about. You know, the future of the branch, you know, and people and how you manage face to face interaction, because every bank is realized and financial service is still an important aspect. You can't just be all kind of digital. So that's one thing.
Speaker 2:And then the second thing is I think there's an appreciation that a lot of the fintech's that have and just the kind of more startup mindset, have focused a lot on the customer experience and the customer journeys and, as a result, you've got some really large evaluations, like, if you look at a Revolut Starlink kind of Monzo all these fintechs and Neobanks have focused a lot on customer experience and their apps and development and a lot of and you see a lot of copycat kind of in the industry, where the bigger banks see some of the releases that are happening in these Neobanks, challenger banks, and then you know, maybe six months after, like they may release something kind of similar. So yeah, there is a lot of that going on, but it's good because the end result should be a better client experience.
Speaker 1:What do you think of the unique challenges of delivering great customer experience in financial services, and I'm thinking things like compliance, regulation, legacy, heritage, all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think the first thing I would say is that it depends on the client and the segment and depends on the product. What I mean by that is a retail client or someone looking for like a 500 or 1,000 pound loan, maybe wanting or wanting to experience a different kind of journey to, let's say, a high net kind of key, a high net worth, or a key client that is about to do a loan for like a super yacht or a super jet for, you know, a 200 million right. So I think the segment as well, in terms of not only the corporate institutional client or soap for the, but also the persona of the client. You know, are they a Gen Z or the millennial or the baby boomer? And you know what's their kind of a risk tolerance and preference as well in terms of products and financial services, and financial services are very highly regulated industry as well. So of course, you need to go, you know and be very transparent on pricing and the risk associated to any products and you know expectations. Let's say, you're doing a loan, you should be doing a full credit underwrite and if it's a secured loan or unsecured loan, you know there's other kind of stipulations that you need to do.
Speaker 2:The reality is there's so many kind of variables, so it does kind of make it complicated to get everything right.
Speaker 2:The main thing and the main feedback I've seen in banks and product developers in FinTechs I also advise is that they look for simplicity and, to you know, simplify the complex and make the journeys actually enjoyable, and it should be kind of omnichannel, so if you stop somewhere in the process and you want to pick it back up, you should really be able to pick it back up at the same stage, whether that's online or the app.
Speaker 2:That's not always the case because it is quite difficult, but I mean, that seems to be the key crux of it. But in terms of that, there's a lot of now movement to storing data and then using data to actually build insights, so that customer 360 is important, and then you use that to have more kind of, I would say, data driven decision making and hyper personalization. There's a lot of talk about that, but the reality is that there's too much data and banks and financial services will be focusing on the data that they need to actually make more informed choices for their customers, for their products. Otherwise, I think you're always chasing your tail when it comes to data.
Speaker 1:Let's unpack that a little bit more and get into that understanding customers. So how are the financial services organizations? How should financial services organizations segment and understand the different customer groups?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I think that's a good question. So I would say, first of all, you need to be clear on what your own product is and what your services are and what you're trying to get out of it. So, like you could, banks, fintech, can have a competitive advantage, for example, in any kind of elements of their product set In terms of the persona as well. First of all, the best date is always the date that you currently have. So it's about and, if you can, I'm a big proponent of, like consumer groups kind of round tables and getting some feedback. Obviously, you've got the data to do the personas and the segments, and that could be segmenting in terms of AUM. It could be segmenting in types of the customers you have and the products that they have. It could be segmenting on, like, the location and the regulatory environment.
Speaker 2:I think that's initial, I would say, a first base, like you would expect to be like standard across the organization. Then you get different segments and regards and segmentation in regards to what is the service that you're providing. Are you providing more relationship management type of service, or are you providing more like online banking kind of transactional management kind of service? And in that, what are the expectations of the client. For example, if you have an SME client, they might kind of want a bank that is more like a treasurer, where they can dip in and dip out when they need financial support, and they kind of really want like a credit line, and what's important from there is speed of transaction, of decision. But you also may want clients more in the advisory side, where they actually want to speak to someone and not really a chatbot, but have a human to human conversation about advice on their portfolio and get some clarity. So it's really all depends on the problem you're trying to solve with the customer and from there I've been involved in lots of transformations where you've tried to simplify the customer journey. You're trying to simplify the rate cards because you've got too many.
Speaker 2:Then you're trying to simplify the end goals and the decision making and trying to actually already have a step up on the decision making in terms of at any one time you should be able to know what your customers can have access to and cannot have access to, rather than just be entirely kind of reactive. So there is a lot of proactive kind of use of data going on from my understanding and my visibility and then from there. Actually, and we'll get onto later on about kind of embedded finance. See, what are the kind of avenues to provide better and more informed kind of products, like in a regulation that came in about consumer duty I think it was 31st of July of this year which is like the bank's responsibility to ensure that the product is the best, is a good fit for the customer, and if it's not, you should have the information at hand to inform the customer on a better option.
Speaker 2:That could be like a mortgage rate or a loan or things like that in nature, and for that is like a big push for banks and financial services to actually have their data in a good way segmented and structured and cleaned, and I think there's a big movement on that happening right now.
Speaker 1:And looking into that a bit further, what role does data analytics play in understanding customer behavior and improving that experience? Obviously, a lot of data analytics are playing here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's massive. I mean, kind of 10 years ago, I think you'd be hard pressed to see any data science, data teams and banks maybe in silos, but not across the group. I remember when I was at Barclays kind of wealth. They had something quite innovative in 2011 onwards where they were focusing more on kind of behavioral science and people's attitudes to risk. That informed their decisions.
Speaker 2:Whether you're going for advisory or a discretion portfolio management or Exco try in terms of certificate and portfolios for investments, I think the reality now is that everything has moved to cloud. Everything is now digitized. I know there are still some things on paper, but there is a lot of data now and there's been lots of studies that show that companies that can use data to make decisions usually make better decisions, and then they're informed decisions, and companies that usually make informed decisions are usually more competitive and provide better services, right? So it's kind of like a domino effect and because of that, there's a big movement to data-driven decision making, which I think makes sense and that will support things like efficiency and cost savings and innovation and product development, as well as kind of more employee engagement, because they know more about the customer. However, I don't think it's just about data.
Speaker 2:I don't want to lose the human element here, especially with people who have 5, 10, 20 years experience, like they know what good looks like. And I know there's a lot of thing about programming now and chat, gpt and Gen AI, which is a big transformation piece in banking but you can't lose the human interaction in this piece. And the reason why I say that is because a lot of banking journeys can be quite emotive. Like you get a loan, if it's a yes or a no, that's an emotive kind of pivot point in the journey. Maybe it's best to speak to a human, maybe, or if they need some advice or if there's insurance claim.
Speaker 2:So there are lots of journeys where it's been proven that it's better to actually speak to like a human being rather than just be on the app or what have you. So I think that's actually very important and there's a bigger drive on that, and that information analytics will actually help the whole personalization piece, because you need information to help you. Yeah, so I'll stop there, but I mean I'll go on forever, but it's one of those things. It's not like a square box and square hole type of solution. There are so many variables.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how would a financial services institution use customer feedback to improve service?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I was at FinTech before and you know what we did was actually. You know we would late share the product with Perspective customers and get feedback and asked them well, does this cover what you'd expect or what else would you want? So I know that you have a lot of kind of an MVP's you have like around tables and get feedback and reiterate. I think that's a great use of your customer skills, you know, and just experience, if you can do that. Also, I'm a big proponent of like of releasing things in beta where you can have kind of friends and family kind of give feedback and then you can reiterate. I think the key thing is there, with, like one banks and financial services have moved away from just like this is the product and this is the product for its lifetime. Like, no, you get feedback.
Speaker 2:You know every bank usually has Technology can releases, maybe once or twice every two weeks, you know, depending on your pipeline. You know there's always a technical specifications to make iterations. That's why, like, you will have updates on your app, on your mobile app or your phone app. You know, every other month is because they find it to weeks, they find bugs. It also could be because, like this new regulation come in or they have to get more data, you know, and things of that nature. So yeah, I mean, I think that's a part of it for sure. So what was the other part of that question? Could? It was a two-part, for what was the second?
Speaker 1:Broadly, something our listeners are always I'm keen on, and you know we cover a lot about the foundation is that alignment? So how would you ensure that the customer experience strategy in a financial services organization, the line, would go for business objectives, and these are ever. Is there ever a conflict?
Speaker 2:Okay, excellent, right, yeah, so I've actually got a model of which kind of works actually, and I've spoken to quite a few people about this and it seems it seems to work. So you start with what is the product service you have and what is the problem that you're trying to solve for the customer. It could be a mortgage, you know. It could be a loan, it could be an investment, whatever it is right. And and be very clear, what does the best journey look like in that example? For example, if you've already given information before on a topic, you would not expect to then Give the information again in that journey, right? I'm a big proponent of not kind of double tapping in terms of information there. So that's one. And then, and then is very clearly, from a strategic perspective, does that align? Is your company's kind of, I would say, priorities aligned to what is best in class of that journey? And be honest with you know, the, the company there and the employees, like, okay, like we may want to be the best in class, but it looks like it. From these ten key Pivot points, we're only actually doing a five that are really good, right? So the reality then is that what are you doing with the other five and you're actually making inroads to develop that or not, and so be it. So there needs to be alignment in terms of strategy to align With the best customer client experience and then, for me, if the the level below that is, then aligning the product teams, the operations teams, the customer experience teams you know, you know the UX, ui designers, whatever it is to make them focused on those kind of improvements and deliverables and making sure that the business is actually set up to support those items and solutions. And if you align, like the customer journey with the strategic kind of business journey within, but then to like all the Operational teams and finance and risk and compliance and so forth, then you can very clearly see if you're aligned or not, or and where the gaps are, and that essentially then Determines what your roadmap has to be in terms of improving customer experience.
Speaker 2:The reality is that what good looks like, what good looks like is always evolving and you know, I know a competitor would always release something that's more innovative, and then you kind of go back to the top thing. Ah well, we thought this was best, but now it looks like something else is best. Do we want to have that in our roadmap? No, because we've got another five things which we're not doing really well at the moment.
Speaker 2:Let's focus on that, or yes, I think we're in a position to now do that, and the reality, I would say is that sometimes banks and fintechs always get get caught in the cycle of looking at their competitors and trying to, you know, build something a bit more shinier or Keep pace, but the reality is that they're better off actually fixing what they have the moment and really making it the best they can. So that then provides a foundation where you can put the shiny kind of bells and whistles on. There's no point nobody cares about how nice the paint is on the car if the engine doesn't go right. So that is one of those things you Really interesting and take that bit further.
Speaker 1:What's the future outlook? Do you think? How do you see Customer service in banking, financial services, especially with the emergence of FinTechs, new banks, etc. How do you see that developing and I'm thinking of things like Gen, ai and the balance between automating, automation and personalization how much to take on that?
Speaker 2:Well, I was an industry vent yes, kind of yes over the last two days, and there was there was a stage called digital innovation and Gen AI, so there's a lot of talk about it. I mean, I'll give a few snippets. I would say the first thing is a lot of banks and FinTechs are investing in Gen AI projects. A lot of VCs, and private equity firms as well, are investing in companies that are building this out. So it's definitely a growth area. It's definitely shifted. I don't think extra budget has been assigned to transformation, I think, but the privatization of transformation budgets have Swung into kind of Gen AI, and the reason being is because that technology has passed a threshold where the it's now kind of useful and it can implement something and you can get some quick wins. So I think that's interesting and I think the hesitancy there are a lot of banks and FinTechs in general is that, but they're not sure about what regulation is Is going to be coming in on this and also the regulators are probably looking at it and trying to understand Well, how much do you want? Do you want to wait for the market to innovate, and where are the guardrails required? I think there's a bit of them Kind of six and half a dozen of the other on that one and they're probably trying to understand as well, but it's definitely passed a threshold where it's what everyone's talking about it now. So that's one. Secondly, operationally, like you know, I think a lot of admin can probably be automated through Gen AI if you get your kind of Networks and data working effectively. I mean, the reality is that some jobs are definitely going to be replaced by Gen AI, but the reality is also is that it's probably going to be more like a tool that that banks and financial services actually used to Improve their deliverables and reduce admin time, and then you can allocate more time to actually doing things that are going to actually, I would say, have more High IP can impact against the client. So I think that's one.
Speaker 2:Of course, there's this balance between omni channel and mobile. I mean, in reality, you know, if you speak to anyone in Gen Z now you talk about a bank, the first thing is like, have they got an app? If they did, if they never had a app, they would even consider a bank right, like you know, back in the days or so, like so. So that's kind of open of those things. But also there's a big movement now about kind of just digital banks and mobile banks. But I think there is going to be a movement, I think Not a return to branch, but I went to another event which is like what does the future of the branch can look like?
Speaker 2:You know, the reality is that you only kind of in banking now, natural services you only kind of meet something face-to-face if there's a problem or you need a wet signature or something. So there is going to be interesting piece on that perspective. But the, I would say the another thing about evolving in banking is that you know it's kind of going to be hidden in the background a lot now, which is that banking and financial services is moving interestingly into more, I would say, like a hospitality type of industry where, like, the customer experience is more important and the embedded element of it is more important. Like you know, you shouldn't have to go to a bank to get a loan. It should be part of the journey. I'll give you an example. I was on that on a panel yesterday with someone that has is the head of FinTech partnerships for DNB, which is the biggest bank in Norway, and they've got a collaboration of a Tesla, you know, in Norway and a few other kind of Scandinavian countries where they provide the credit, underwrite as a white label service for Tesla on their website. So basically, the experience customer experience with Tesla, remains with Tesla, but there's a bank underwriting the loan. But you remain on Tesla and the journey and I think there's going to be a lot of that going on.
Speaker 2:If you look at M&S, m&s Connect, you know you know they, they want the customer relationship to be sticky and they want to create lots of solutions to multiple problems and there's a big talk about kind of super app. You know things that nature. I'm not. I hate to talk too much about that, but what I want to say is that Services for financial services are going to be embedded in other customer journeys. Now, if you look at e-commerce and at the end of it you have Klarna or a binary later, or you know, like APALP in three or what have you, it's going to be part of the journey in something else, not the journey of Finance, and I think very soon. I mean, if you think about it, embedded finance, embedded bank, has always been here. Like you put an ATM on Subscribe To TS inside Tesco, what have you? But the bank is available in that, you know, in that location. Now, because everything has gone to mobile, the bank has just shifted into the mobile kind of universe and now what banks have realized is, because of data and everything is digital, you can actually now move the bank or the service of the bank into the customer journey of another company that is not a financial organization.
Speaker 2:However, there is a risk. The risk is, if everything is so smooth and everything is so frictionless, where is friction required? For example, if you're about, if you're going to check out, maybe you want a seamless experience to do one click move. But if you're about to purchase something that will have a long lasting impact, like whether it's a mortgage or whether you know you're about to get a loan, or you may be maybe want a little bit of friction just to make sure. Hey, it's the right thing, because in the day, people will get so used to doing clicks. You could do a click to buy a sandwich, but you can do a few clicks to buy a house. You know, so you know, and some people might not be ready for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Really interesting. I'm thinking more personally now before we wrap up. What sort of motivated you to move into customer experience within the financial services sector? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't. I don't think it happened kind of rationally in terms of a front of heads me using, you know, my kind of logic and rational kind of thinking here. It was just more of a realization that when it comes to banks, it becomes to financial services. Customer experience is so important that you'd be silly not to understand it and focus on it because in the day that seems to be a differentiating kind of factor. You know, and it's quite honestly, it's quite kind of simple, If you focus on customer experience and user journeys, banks naturally have a competitive advantage. You know, because it's a highly competitive landscape in terms of financial services and it's not a race to zero. If you always play that game about cutting the margin to zero, you know you're never going to win because you're always going to get those clients are always are just loyal to the rate.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's not something you can win, but if you have good kind of customer experience, you end up having better customer loyalty and customer retention and I think that's vital when you're starting to build a relationship. You don't want to be a financial services, you just don't want to be a company, therefore a transaction. You want to build a relationship and support people throughout their various stages and lifecycle. So just having like trust and retention is important and that builds your reputation. If you're good in CX and UX as well, you can actually build regulatory compliance considerations within the customer journeys to ensure and support kind of compliance in those and that's important CX as well. If you're doing it right, you know you could definitely have efficiencies and cost savings. You can definitely support more innovation, important development, and then there's opportunity for cross selling, up selling, and also then data driven decision making. If you're capturing your data and actually from my experience, if your product is slick and you know clean and nice to use, your employee engagement actually probably becomes better as well and people are happier to work there.
Speaker 2:So it's a big movement towards user centered design and personalization. And something else I haven't mentioned actually, which is important banking, financial services expected account 24 seven. You know. You know in terms of that's the expectation now that someone might be scrolling their phone at 2am and want to buy a purchase like they just expect it to work just like a light switch. You don't, nobody really cares how the light switch works, they just expect it to go on. When you expect to go on. I think that's what financial services is going to kind of end up being that it's there in the background, it's always there, available to you, and when you need it, you tap into it and you get out.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting. And finally was he did you share a piece of advice for any aspiring CX professionals listening who might be looking to enter financial services?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So first thing is don't be afraid to build something yourself, and what I mean by that is you've got so many tools now in figma or lucid char or so many kind of process flows that you can create that if you actually want to. If you see something that's incorrect or can be improved, nobody is stopping you from actually creating a proof of concept or MVP, and those types of people that use that type of, I would say, of you know what's the right word. People that show that type of resilience and motivation to do something is very well, highly regarded in the industry, because we want people who do, who do and action owners. I would also say that don't focus just on CX roles. I think in every role now, in every company, there is a requirement to understand the customer experience and the customer's point of view. If you bring that always front in mind, you're very likely to make better services and products. Also, don't be afraid to speak to customers as well and just get information. I think the more you ask, the more you will learn.
Speaker 2:If you look at FinTechs and banks, there are so many roles out there. The one thing I would say if someone is interested in doing this. Really look at a user-centered design. Look at FinTechs or financial services startups that probably get a lot more experience up front and a lot more end-to-end experience. Then you can always utilize that experience either to pivot into a larger organization or continue that journey. A lot of the FinTechs and the startups they focus a lot on the customer side and the customer relationship and really making that slick. You can learn a lot from working in that part of the industry rather than just going into a big bank where you might get stuck in the legacy systems and just that big organization where you may feel disconnected with the customer. Yeah, also, any role that it's customer facing, I think is just amazing and you get that feedback instantly, which will always give you competitive advantage going forward.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, I've seen. It's been brilliant having you with us today. I hope our listeners have found this as insightful as I have. You can find out lots more about customer experience foundation at CXOorg. I hope you can join us next time on CXDiaries.